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    Hello everyone!

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    Stah

    Posts : 108
    Join date : 2015-12-05
    Age : 44
    Location : Poland

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Stah on Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:16 pm

    Hmm... my post was lost somewhere... So again:

    Donken wrote: There is a fix for it, by seperating the front and rear polys to two seperate objects, that fixed all problems.

    So is this (this separating two surfaces of the armour plate, as I understand) a cure for all problems with 3D models or for just for some of them?

    Donken

    Posts : 183
    Join date : 2014-07-25
    Age : 32
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Donken on Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:26 pm

    For some of them. It is mostly a problem on the mantlets for lots of tanks. And generally for everything it depends alot on the shape of the parts.
    Also a lot of tanks doesnt have this problem at all because of the shape Very Happy

    Stah

    Posts : 108
    Join date : 2015-12-05
    Age : 44
    Location : Poland

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Stah on Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:32 pm

    Donken wrote:Also a lot of tanks doesnt have this problem at all because of the shape Very Happy

    I don't get you point. I assume it was meant to be obvious, so shame of me scratch What shape differences do you mean?

    Btw, sorry for bothering you - it's just a great opportunity for me to understand a lot of things that bothered me for a long time; and I'm desperate to (ab)use it Twisted Evil Very Happy ...

    Donken

    Posts : 183
    Join date : 2014-07-25
    Age : 32
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Donken on Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:54 pm

    This is mostly my own logical thinking and how it usually works and it would explain alot.

    Take a look at the mantlet on for example the Jagdpanther and then take a look at the Panther. The Panther have a very thin mantlet with polys on both sides and the Jagdpanther mantlet is bigger and longer. The Jagdpanthers mantlet is fine, because there is quite some space between the front and rear polys, On the Panther they are close to eachother. Now lets imagine the calculation, we can say it calculates once every frame and the shell we are shooting is 3dm long. It will only calculate the front and rear end on the shell if its a hit. The possibility of the shell passing throu the Panther mantlet in exactly the middle of the shell ends between the frames are 100times bigger then the shell going throu the Jagdpanther mantlet, because the mantlet is alot longer so its not possible for the shell to have travelled throu the mantlet inbetween the frames (if it is in the mantlet during the update it is counted as a hit).
    If you can imagine that, you can probably figure out why the shape is important. There are alot of things we dont know, we dont know the min-size of an object, we dont know how often it update everyframe, we dont know exactly how it calculates this. We dont know the physical size of the shell (if there is any), Or if it is using physics or just a textured raycast or something like that. Thing is by removing the rear polys, we force the ray to not ignore the polygon infront of it because it doesnt know the rear (its infinite)

    Stah

    Posts : 108
    Join date : 2015-12-05
    Age : 44
    Location : Poland

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Stah on Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:04 pm

    Ok, the thickness/time/framing thing I figured out at a first glance, I just thought you're referring to shape, not just thickness.

    But... doesn't it mean that it would be best for all vehicles to have extremally (30cm, say) thick walls/sides? If the ONLY thing in 3D model influencing the penetration is the armour map, why bother with modelling plates of certain thickness? Is it that the only reason for this is visual - like in mantlets or hatches, where the thickness of armour is vusible to the player - ?...

    Stah

    Posts : 108
    Join date : 2015-12-05
    Age : 44
    Location : Poland

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Stah on Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:15 pm

    Btw, now I'm getting the whole picture. You (as the community) are just experimenting with it - I didn't know that, I just assumed you just know it all from somewhere... Like from some tank-sim-armour-modeling high school, you know Razz Very Happy Ok, I got it now.

    Donken

    Posts : 183
    Join date : 2014-07-25
    Age : 32
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Donken on Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:22 pm

    If you think about it, all models have polygons all around, the hulls (both front plate and rear plate, also the sides), the turret (front, back, sides) etc. It is the physical thickness of the 3d object that counts when calculating a hit or not, not if it penetrates. It has nothing to do with the armor map.
    Armor thickness when it comes to the game aspect is not modelled it is scripted in the config files.

    The only time the thickness (visually) are modelled are for things like hatches and mantlets, and if they are to smal, the bullet goes throu it during the frame update. It will count it as a penetrated hit and continue. It is like the ray ignores the armor map when that happens.

    I usually dont want to talk about other games, but in another project im working on now, we had the same problem as this, but it was even worse. What we did was to change the size of the bullets collision box so it could not go throu anything without atleast have some point inside the target, otherwise it would just go throu it as if nothing had happened. This we cant do here.

    Donken

    Posts : 183
    Join date : 2014-07-25
    Age : 32
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Donken on Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:25 pm

    Haha, you are both correct and wrong. I have modelled and scripted tanks for SF for 4 years, so it is alot of testing and experimenting.
    And as we speak im coding a bullet script for something else Razz

    Stah

    Posts : 108
    Join date : 2015-12-05
    Age : 44
    Location : Poland

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Stah on Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:49 pm

    Donken wrote:It has nothing to do with the armor map.

    ??? So what armour maps are for? Ok, I know what for - but when/where are they taken into account?... Shit, I'm lost now Crying or Very sad

    Donken wrote:Armor thickness when it comes to the game aspect is not modelled it is scripted in the config files.

    You mean - as in tech_cfg files in SF, right?

    Donken wrote:The only time the thickness (visually) are modelled are for things like hatches and mantlets, and if they are to smal, the bullet goes throu it during the frame update.

    Okay, this I got for the first time, it's obvious for me.

    Donken wrote:What we did was to change the size of the bullets collision box so it could not go throu anything without atleast have some point inside the target

    Ok, this I'm able to visualize. Interesting, though. So - I assume - you are the professional 3D modeller, right? I'm a graphic designer by trade, you know, so I try to understand all your explanations by the nearest 2D ananlogy - Bezier curve. It works, but not all the time Laughing

    Stah

    Posts : 108
    Join date : 2015-12-05
    Age : 44
    Location : Poland

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Stah on Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:51 pm

    Donken wrote: I have modelled and scripted tanks for SF for 4 years

    Man, you're a true wizard to me! Shocked May I ask which models are yours? I'm just jumping into one! Very Happy

    Donken

    Posts : 183
    Join date : 2014-07-25
    Age : 32
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Donken on Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:59 pm

    Make a difference between an armor hit and armor penetration. The 3d model makes a difference between a hit or not a hit (obviously) and the armor map decides if that hit is a pentration or not =)

    Conclusion, two tightly sqeezed polygons can be hit (physical 3d model), but the armor maps rgb value is not taken into account, its counted as a pentration as if there is no armor map.

    armor map = the greyscaled .tga file, I meant the wrong thing, not wierd you got confused, my fault Very Happy, its not scripted, its painted of course Very Happy

    Yeah, im kind of a 3dsmax guru, I dont see me as professional thou ^^

    Donken

    Posts : 183
    Join date : 2014-07-25
    Age : 32
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Donken on Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:06 pm

    Oh geez, ehumm, that is many, it also depends what you mean by mine ^^ The tanks in here i have done from scratch is: Jagdpanzer IV, Jagdpanther (new version) Jagdtiger (both old and new) I have made two of the Barns, the windmill, one of the fences, the gravestones, the hangar, The Panther G (i used the old Panther A as a base/blueprint) practice targets, the railroads, And then i have also got many many models from lockie to fix but those i dont count as mine. I have also helped with tons of other models, by redoing them and scripted them like the Tiger 1, the Kingtiger, su76, the Panzer 4 H is almost completely by me. There are sooo many things i have done during all years =) I have also done one interior from scratch for the Kingtiger, i did a total remake of the old Tiger versus T-34 interior for the Tiger 1 and put in the game.

    Stah

    Posts : 108
    Join date : 2015-12-05
    Age : 44
    Location : Poland

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Stah on Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:14 pm

    Man, this is huge, what can I say? I planned to be 3D modeller from probably 2001 or 2002, but there were always these folders, ads and the rest of advertising shit to design... No time at all then. Must be fun to sit in a vehicle created by yourself from scratch and fight with it...

    Donken

    Posts : 183
    Join date : 2014-07-25
    Age : 32
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Donken on Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:18 pm

    It was amazingly fun in the beginning. Now i only see lots of problems and errors on everything i have done haha. And because im very picky with what im doing, lots of the models are a nightmare to look at xD Its a good thing i dont have time anymore hehe.

    Stah

    Posts : 108
    Join date : 2015-12-05
    Age : 44
    Location : Poland

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Stah on Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:22 pm

    Yeah, same here. Photoshop, InDesign and Illustrator were a fun for the first 5 years. Then they became torture tools affraid

    Donken

    Posts : 183
    Join date : 2014-07-25
    Age : 32
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Hello everyone!

    Post by Donken on Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:26 pm

    I know the feeling =)

    EDIT:
    Discussion with "weight of the vehicle" moved here:

    http://stasf2008.ephpbb.com/t625-weight-of-the-vehicle#6211


    Last edited by lockie on Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : posts moved in the new topic)

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    Re: Hello everyone!

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